“My fellow Americans, we are and always will be a nation of immigrants”, said US President Barack Obama in his address to the American people on 20 November 2014. Migration, to put it mildly, is a politically hot topic. Many people, myself included, hold strong views about migrants. But we are all immigrants at least in terms of heritage, even if distant heritage.
One of the most depressing aspects about the debates about migration, in my opinion, is the lack of humanity. Migrants are almost treated as sub-human. Often those people who are very anti-migrant have never got to know a migrant. They just claim, invariably without any evidence offered, that migrants take their jobs, take their homes, commit crime, spread disease and the list goes on. The far right, which increasingly is the established and mainstream right, spread these populist messages as a way of courting voters and getting into power. The right is playing on fear, the fear of the 'other'.
Here in Britain, Brexit can be largely explained by a vote against migrants. Even after Britain's exit of the European Union, the Reform UK political party, led by Nigel Farage, is riding high in the polls - the party was once the Brexit Party also led by Nigel Farage, is still banging the drum against migration. Clearly similar debates are happening in other countries, most notably in the US, Australia and other European countries like France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Slovakia, Spain and Sweden. There has been a very significant shift to the right, largely based on anti-migration, in the so-called Western world.
The debate about migration, I would argue, is a racist debate. And by that I mean the debate often comes down to the colour of a migrant's skin. Those opposed to migration seem to be most opposed against non-white people migrating to predominantly 'white' countries. Here, people don't talk about white Americans, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders and South Africans migrating to Britain; it's the 'non-white' migrants who are often seen as the problem. Surely that's racism at play.
Also the debate about migration often fails to distinguish between different types of migrants. There are legal migrants who enter a country legally and there are illegal migrants who enter a country illegally. That's one distinction though it's getting increasingly blurred with countries like Britain and the US declaring that asylum seekers can only claim asylum via designated routes. Here in Britain, any asylum seeker crossing the Channel from France in a small boat, no doubt organised by criminal human trafficking gangs, is illegal. But the very definition of an asylum seeker, someone fleeing for reasons of safety, isn't going to be particularly fussy about how they arrive at a safe country. Now asylum seekers wanting to go to Britain have to go through certain so-called legal routes and Britain isn't making it easy for them to legally claim asylum here.
But often all and especially non-white migrants are treated as illegal migrants. This is just ridiculous. Here in Britain, and I suspect the same is true in most other countries, legal migrants fall into many different categories.
There are legal migrants who are allowed to live here because of their jobs. These are the legal economic migrants. Britain's labour market cannot be sustained by relying on British workers. Its National Health Service relies on doctors and nurses being recruited from abroad. Similarly, its care homes for the elderly, its Indian restaurants and many farms requiring seasonal labour rely on migrants. Care homes have found that British workers aren't keen on wiping the arses of old people for the minimum wage!
Also many top sportspersons work here, especially in the fields of cricket, football, ice hockey, rugby league and rugby union. It's interesting to say the least to talk with a pro-football but anti-migrant supporter. When you point out that Arsenal's Gabriel (Brazilian), Aston Villa's Emi Martínez (Argentinian), Chelsea's Moisés Caicedo (Ecuadorian), Liverpool's Mo Salah (Egyptian), Manchester City's Erling Haaland (Norwegian), Manchester United's Bruno Fernandes (Portuguese), Newcastle United's Nick Woltemade (German) and Tottenham Hotspurs' Mohammed Kudus (Ghanaian) wouldn't be playing in the Premier League if their 'migrants-should-go-home' views were the law of the land. That person invariably shrugs their shoulders and just says it's different without seeing the contradiction of their views.
Another group of legal migrants in this country are so-called non-doms. These are rich people who are allowed to live here without taking UK citizenship and inexplicably with certain tax advantages. It's not the rich migrants, like top sports stars and non-doms, but the poor migrants who are the 'problem'. This move is echoed by the proposed and probably soon-to-be launched Trump Gold Card scheme, as the US President has signed an executive order for its launch. The scheme will allow very rich people to settle in America provided they give a million dollars to the American government. It seems money allows the rich to migrate where they want! The migration debate is also about wealth.
There are also many international students here in Britain. Universities rely on them because they pay much higher fees than British students; effectively international students subsidise the higher education of British students. British universities recruit a lot of international students and they are one of Britain's biggest source of export earnings even though they come here rather than we go there. But in the push to reduce immigration, international student numbers are being squeezed by the British government. They're now only allowed to bring their spouses and children over if they study for a PhD, a course of study of three or four years.
And there are international tourists. Now many would argue that such tourists aren't migrants. But they are. How long does someone have to stay in a country before they're considered a migrant? What's the difference between a tourist wanting to stay a long time in Britain, a migrant worker spending a summer picking fruit and an international student registered on a year-long masters course?
I wonder how easy it will be for football fans to get a visa to travel to America to watch the World Cup next year. Mexico are co-hosts along with America and Canada. And Iran have qualified for the World Cup finals. I wonder whether Iranian (as well as Mexican and even Canadian) fans will find it easy to get a visa to see their country's games in America. Palestine and Venezuela haven't qualified, so that issue won't arise. (Please remember Trump's America recently refused to grant visas to the Palestinian delegation wanting to attend a United Nations meeting held on American soil).
But the most controversial migrants here, and probably elsewhere in the so-called Western world, are asylum seekers and refugees. Most people don't just understand the laws around asylum seekers and refugees. Laws about asylum seekers and refugees here are largely based on the the United Nations' 1951 Refugee Convention and Article 14 of its Universal Declaration of Human Rights signed in 1948. The Council of Europe's 1950 European Convention of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, enshrined in law here, is also another source of law. By signing up to these international treaties, Britain has promised to adjust its domestic law to comply with international law. This is how international law works; once domestic law enshrines international law, domestic courts are expected to uphold international law though there's often an international court, like the United Nations' International Court of Justice and the Council of Europe's European Court of Human Rights as the final legal arbiter of disputes. (Please remember the Council of Europe is separate to the European Union; Britain may have left the European Union but it has not left the Council of Europe.) These international laws mean that someone who is persecuted in one country can seek asylum in another safe country and the person seeking asylum cannot be returned to that unsafe country.
About 150 out of 193 countries in the world, including Britain but initially excluding America (though it did later sign up to the 1967 Protocol), are signatories to the United Nations' Refugee Convention. And there are 46 signatories (out of 46 Council of Europe members; Russia isn't a member) have signed up to the European Convention of Human Rights.
Regarding asylum seekers, it takes time for the authorities to process their cases, not helped by the fact that asylum seekers often arrive with no paperwork (eg passports, identity cards) and that processing such claims isn't a political priority. Here, asylum seekers aren't allowed to work while seeking asylum, which means they don't pay income taxes, but receive accommodation and a not-that-generous cash allowance while their case is being investigated. They're also entitled to free health care and schooling if they have kids to look after. This makes them an easy target for attack by the right.
Margaret Thatcher once said that “People are really rather afraid that this country might be rather swamped by people with a different culture.” And Donald Trump in his last presidential campaign, without any evidence, proclaimed that “In Springfield [in Ohio], they're eating the dogs, the people that came in, they're eating the cats. They're eating they're eating the pets of the people that live there.” And Trump's 'they' were Haitian migrants. These politicians are appealing to people's fears about the 'other'. The 'other' are always non-white and poor migrants.
The right spuriously but frequently links migrants to crime and disease, and it sometimes blames migrants for a lack of housing and jobs for 'native' citizens. Though there are issues with migration, I argue that these issues are greatly exaggerated and that the problem of migration is largely manufactured by the right for political purposes.
The debate about migration often focuses on the two extreme ends of a spectrum - no migration or uncontrolled free-for-all migration. I can only think of one country, North Korea, in which there are very few migrants living in the country (though they are many North Koreans who have fled the country). All other countries allow for migration to a lesser or greater extent, though I cannot think of a country that allows in all migrants that want to go there.
Do you think migration is a problem?
If so, how should such a problem be solved or at least managed?
As I've tried to demonstrate in this post, there are many different types of migrants. And any response to the issues of migration should be accordingly nuanced. In my opinion, there's a very strong economic case for migrants to plug gaps in a country's labour market. There's a very strong political argument for asylum seekers to be given refugee status if it's proven that they would face persecution, and maybe death, if returned to the country they're fleeing from.
It is my view that the issue of migration should be managed by governments. Governments should regularly assess sectors of the economy in which there are or will be labour shortages. Governments should endeavour to speedily assess the claims of asylum seekers rather than allow a substantial backlog of claims to build up. Governments should plan the provision of public services, especially health care, housing and schools, with migration trends and indeed wider population trends in mind. And, perhaps most controversially, governments should grant an amnesty to all illegal migrants and grant them citizenship status - there are strong economic and non-economic arguments for such a humanitarian move not least because taxes can be levied on the earnings of illegal migrants, public health can be better monitored, public services can be better planned, and the welfare of such migrants, often exploited, would be improved.
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30 comments
this is a sex site not immigration BS
And you're not remotely sexy, so why would it bother you?
this is only interesting post I've seen on this site for years ngls
Yes, unfortunately “uncontrolled immigration” is a problem, a big one: and moreover, a man-made, artificial one. It’s obvious that the eight billion inhabitants of Earth cannot all live together in Luxembourg… that’s just a rhetorical, sarcastic example, of course, however excellent that country’s social benefits may be. What should be done instead is to make people “not want or need“ to emigrate, to help them feel well and fulfilled in their own homes, in their own countries, under reasonable political systems based in Freedom.
And the blame for why they can’t is, in ninety percent of cases, on the greedy capitalists of our First World who want to keep all the world’s resources for themselves, caring nothing for people as human beings. They don’t care where anyone lives, as long as they can have a cheaper gardener or cleaning lady, all the better. Disgusting misers!
I’ve been an emigrant myself: legally, yes, in Venezuela (ironic isn’t it?) and my parents would have preferred not to be. They would have rather stayed in their own country, in Spain. But emigration is a misfortune, a tragedy, not a virtue or something desirable.
It's difficult to criticise a migrant wanting a better life. Reducing inequality between countries and tackling poverty would almost certainly depress the numbers wanting to migrate. There are now climate change refugees.
@spunkycumfun
I will never, never, critize an “individual” immigrant who wants a better life for him and his family or simply to look for new opportunities.
Well, I suppose you don’t count the Brits who flee to the Costa Blanca for fewer rainy days, cheaper beer, and easier sex as “climate migrants”… and I say it knowingly, having contributed, in a modest way, to the latter phenomenon… at least in the past, I think. 😄
There’s no such thing as a “climate catastrophe” to justify uncontrolled migrations. What we really have is the greed of investment funds ruining full countries, and the fragility of a fiduciary money system based on printers, nukes, and aircrafts rather than on anything of genuine, practical value.
@AuraAviatik6 I do count the Brits who flock to the Costa Blanca for the sun, sea and sex!
Fiji is resettling people living in coastal villages due to rising sea levels largely caused by climate change.
@spunkycumfun Maybe. But I don’t think the inhabitants of the Fiji Islands, if they ever really had to abandon them, would cause any serious migration problem. I do understand their situation and feel sympathy for them; they are few, and could be welcomed almost anywhere without much difficulty.
The real problem begins when tens of thousands arrive in an uncontrolled way, as is happening now. Still, the Earth belongs to all of us. I understand that everyone wants the best for themselves and their families, and that’s perfectly fine. The greater difficulty comes when newcomers try to change the way of life of those already there, or when the resources of the host countries are stretched beyond what they can bear.
Anyway, I’ve expressed my opinion on this subject several times on my blog
@AuraAviatik6 Of course Fijians won't cause a serious migration problem, their migration is from coastal villages to more upland ground. There are Pacific islands who are trying to negotiate a deal with Australia or New Zealand to resettle their population if and when sea levels rise.
It's those low-lying Pacific islands which are the bellwethers of climate change.
I absolutely loved your very long blog...but I am one prone to writing long, detailed blogs myself lol I love information that helps explain the facts about what is going on. In the US, when Trump campaigned to be president, he promised his followers that he was going to deport millions of illegal immigrants...all the gang members, rapists, murderers, he was going to make America safe again. In my head, at the time, I had the vision of train box cars being loaded with brown skinned men by armed police and sent back to where they came from. I did a lot of research and I knew that the millions he spoke of were not all gang members, rapists and murderers. I did support the deporation of illegals who were gange members, rapists and murderers, however. As it has turned out, very quickly, to be able to meet his promise of deporting millions of illegals, Trump changed it to snatching anyone with brown skin off the street, out of their homes, out of the places they worked at...and they are being snatched up, pushed to the ground, handcuffed and thrown into unmarked vans to be 'disappeared' by ICE agents in full war gear, faces covered, weapons loaded and pointed at anyone. If you don't know what 'disappeared' means, it means that family members are unable to find out where ICE has taken them, what detention facility they are being held at. The detainees are not given their consitutional right to a phone call, to seeing a lawyer, and when family members call ICE, they often have no record of the family member. Along with illegals, many US citizens get rounded up in these mass raids...they shout that they are US citizens, they even have papers on their person to prove that and ICE declares they are fake. I know that immigrants can be a burden to communities. They need housing, food, medical assistance. How do communities provide that if they are already struggling in this tight economy? My suggestion would be for those in charge to meet at a big table, lots of coffee, lots of pads of paper and pens. There would need to be a 50/50 mix of those who opposed immigrants and those who were not opposed to immigrants. Also at the table would be social service workers who knew the current laws regarding benefits the immigrants were entitled to and what they were not entitled to. And they would talk, each in turn, respect for all opinions compulsory or you would be ejected from the meeting immediately. Budget people. Health care people. All the concerns put on the table. No opinions. Facts only. And solutions to all the concerns discussed. Perhaps I am naive but I believe if everyone's goal was to actually solve the problems in a humanely way...with respect for immigrants as human beings...with compromises, of course....we could figure it out. It would take time and, considering how our current gov't is shut down because 'there is no room for debate', according the Speaker of the House, a reasonable time limit would have to be established with financial consequences if a solution cannot be arrived at. I wonder if the representatives of our gov't who have been told they are not to return to their jobs for the last few weeks (six, i think) until the other side of the room agrees to the spending bill that the other side has put on the table...if their hefty paychecks were not put in their pockets, would they be ok with not showing up for work? Or if their healthcare was taken away until the gov't went back to work? Anyway, sorry for the long reply. Immigration is such a big thing in the US. Seeing twenty, thirty men in full war gear with masks and pointing assault rifles as they flood a Home Depot parking lot, a Mexican restaurant, a farm field, a neighborhood, pushing people to the ground, handcuffing them and throwing them into unmarked vans while their family looks on...as protestors shout, makes it a very big thing. Thanks for your post....it tells me the US is not alone in all this. Unfortunately.
Thank you for your very well reasoned comment. As you've probably noticed, there are quite few very unreasonable comments posted here.
Immigration is a big political issue here too - it was one of the key reasons that many people here voted for Brexit.
Trump's ICE is fast becoming Hitler's Gestapo!
I agree with everything you say bar for one observation, "immigrants can be a burden to communities". Yes, government authorities need to plan things around immigration, notably health care, housing and schools. But nearly all research done by economists conclude that immigrants provide a multitude of economic benefits to those countries.
The significant exception is where refugees flee war or drought and migrate to almost equally poor countries. There is a strain in these cases.
The irony is that most migrants in the world go to poor and not rich countries. The irony would be lost on MAGA looking for simplistic solutions to complex issues.
@spunkycumfun that is very true. I will have to look back on my notes but some non-citizens (immigrants) put billions of dollars into our system, including paying into the social security system that they will not even have access to, they pay taxes, etc...as you pointed out, there are many categories of 'immigrants' and the very illegal ones...who came over without border approval, don't have the p/w to prove who they are, are here completely illegally...they are not allowed to work. They do, employers hire them, they get paid but I won't get into that here. Most other immigrants, non-citizens...are able to work and those are the ones that pay taxes, etc. Some say that our government puts out more in benefits...healthcare, housing, etc...than these people pay into the system but that has been proven to not be true. Well, proven according to all my sources but I am sure others can find proof to the contrary. It has also been said that all immigrants get free healthcare, housing, etc. That is not true. All hospitals here are required to give medical assistance to someone showing up with life threatening...whatever. But illegal immigrants are not eligible for federal medical coverage. However, it does take some time for non citizens to be able to get to the point of being able to work and pay taxes. Until then, I could see how an influx of people who are not able to support themselves, at first, would take some work in the community to get them taken care of, no matter what the communities financial status was. But, all these illegal immigrants, non citizens, asylum seekers, etc ICE is putting into detention centers....ICE and the gov't are taking away billions of dollars that those very immigrants paid into our system. And then the gov't tries to cut benefits to low income families to balance the budget. So that they can keep their campaign promise.
@AmyGood4Mea Here in Britain, everyone whether they are a citizen, a tourist or an illegal migrant gets free health care under the National Health Service (NHS). Obviously health care is paid out of taxation so it's not free as such, and people may have to wait before they get their health care. The NHS is one of the British institutions I'm most proud of, but it's under attack by the right.
@spunkycumfun Obamacare is the whole reason our gov't is shut down. It's healthcare for low income families that is based on financial need...free to many but just cheap to most, they still have to pay. Some benefits on that program will be stripped away with the Republican Bill on the table, which is why Democrats refuse to vote for it. It is estimated...and some have already rec'd notice to this effect...a family paying $100 a month will have to pay $1000 if those benefits are taken away. And no, illegal immigrants here are not eligible for Obamacare tho that is exactly what Republicans are saying.
@AmyGood4Mea America can afford Obamacare. Statistics suggest that Americans pay far more for their health care than, say, the British, French, Germans or Japanese do, but get less for their money. This is capitalism at work.
@spunkycumfun my last post, I promise lol This is a photo of the ICE Detention facility in Portland, Oregon, USA. Those are ICE agents and that's how they are dressed, even when there are no protestors outside the facility and that's how they dress when they jump out of their unmarked vans at a farm, to round up workers, at Home Depot or to take people away from their kids at a Halloween parade.
@AmyGood4Mea ICE is a frightening presence. I've heard that ICE has recruited a lot of the Oath Keepers and Prod Boys.
@AmyGood4Mea
😆😆😆😆😆 And how do your ANTIFA friends dress? All black with full face coverings! These men are receiving death threats against their families, including their children, every single day!
They have every right to protect their identity, their lives and families! Stop being an IDIOT if at all possible!
@TreacherousHrt1 people who are anti facist will dress in inflatable frog costumes, jeans and tee shirts, etc but they do not wear full tactical gear nor do they wear masks nor do they carry assault weapons. I invite you to bring up any of the photos and videos of the 800 million Love America No King march participants and you will see what people wear who are anti facist. On the other hand, you could also bring up photos of the soldiers landing on Normandy Beach...they were anti facists. Eisenhower did wear fatiques and he was anti facist. Perhaps if ICE did not drag random people down to the ground and kneel on them to keep them down, while they are shouting they are a US Citizen. Perhaps if 30 ICE agents in unmarked vehicles, in full tactical gear, masks, aiming fully loaded assault rifles at anyone who dares to protest their brutality against anyone with brown skin didn't invade a halloween parade, a peaceful park, a restaurant, perhaps they would not be treated adversely. Meanwhile, Trump and his administration has now declared, in writing, on several official gov't websites, that judges, attorney generals, lawyers, anyone who disagrees with the administration's policies to be domestic terrorists. How is that not a death threat for simply disagreeing with what they are doing? And please, don't say it's ok for the trump administration to do that but not ok for protestors to voice their opposition to the brutality they see in ICE take downs. What's good for the goose must be good for the gander.
@TreacherousHrt1 There's no need to be abusive by your name-calling.
@spunkycumfun
This one's funny. Straight from the cult, little to no content on its blog page, comes on to your post to sling insults at you and @AmyGood4Mea. Definitely not worth getting excited about, a proper troll, maybe even Paul or Dio!! 🤣🤣🤣
@lindoboy100 They just keep coming. Below is a comment from Bakr about how Britain has surrendered. Do you think there's a group here where they discuss tactics? I'm slightly bemused how they've latched onto this post.
@spunkycumfun
I've no idea. I've not had this level of abuse for ages, I thought they'd all just been smoking weed, like the Bakr personna below, but you seem to have stirred them up and re-awakened their derangement. I remember OldStandardDude used to get them all the time but they've stopped attacking him.
As for @Bakr_JustBakr, isn't it funny how if you dare to pass comment on their wonderful and great america you get variously insulted and shat on from a great height, but of course they're allowed to say what they want about any other country because through their magnanimous sacrifice they've earned the right?
And this post wasn't even about the usa . . . f'n muppets!
@spunkycumfun
Also, my latest post has still not been approved, despite being set on delay for over four hours.
No bias? My hairy scottish arse!
@lindoboy100 They are at best muppets!
@lindoboy100 I'm coming round to the view that there's bias. My initial reply to the bottom-speaking Bakr has been taken down. And it was a polite reply with a smiley emoji!
@spunkycumfun
No consistency, no transparency, the appearance of secrecy . . . bias seems to be a logical conclusion.
@lindoboy100 I agree.
In my opinion there is no blood line, no pedigree to American blood apart from the origonal Indian Nation, mostly wiped out by interbred European invaders, the first terrorists destroying the indigenous tribes for their own greed. Nothing has changed since then, has it!
Native Americans have had a very rough deal since the Europeans came over to America.
What the white folks in the US seem to forget is that their ancestors are all immigrants, even those who arrived in the New World on the Mayflower. The indigenous Americans aren't white. The ignorance that has permeated society is astounding.
There's a lot of ignorance in debates about immigration. There are quite a few ignorant comments on this post.
@spunkycumfun
Yeah, the ignorance shines through.
Do you think the indigenous people of the North American continent didn't come from another place? 😆😆😆 Those original tribes were fighting over hunting grounds too sweetie! You think the history of North America is unique?
Same thing, different lands, different people for tens of thousands of years!
But the US is a country...with laws and borders. Don't like it...take a hike or change it legally! But I'll be damned if I'm going to willingly pay for some person or persons here and stayed illegally!
Play by the rules or get thrown the hell out, imprisoned or both!
@TreacherousHrt1 The recipient of your comment lives in Japan!
@TreacherousHrt1
Acquiring the ability to write complete and coherent sentences might lend some weight to your completely insubstantial opinion.
Also, just a wild stab in the dark, but 'playing by the rules', 'getting thrown out' or 'imprisoned' is three options I think. I could be wrong though, my arithmetic isn't great at this time on a Monday evening.
Why is politics being discussed in this forum?
Politics is allowed. Why, if you don't like politics, did you bother to leave your comment?
I have to confess, I started skimming about halfway through.
I support managed immigration because, as you noted, we need the workers. It's crazy that some politicians are talking about incentives for women to have babies (white women only of course!) when there are plenty of people who want to live and work in our country.
I also think that the issue is only going to become more contentious with various climate impacts.
It was a long post and I even edited it down!
Climate Change will lead to greater migration; it's already happening particularly in areas where crops have failed because of drought or coast areas where land has been eroded because of rising sea levels.
If you study the history of the human species from its origin to now you will see that we have always been on the move. Sometimes it is from one continent to another or just to a different neighborhood in the same city. The problem occurs when we move to a land that is already well occupied by other people. This has been the case throughout the history of the human species starting when homo sapiens moved from Africa to Europe and met the Neanderthals. It is worse now because of how overpopulated the planet is.
As you rightly say, migration has been and remains very much part of the way humans live. The issue now is how to manage it.
"migrants take their jobs, take their homes, commit crime, spread disease" - you forgot "they're eating the cats and dogs". 😕
But the is a difference between organized immigration (which the US very much needs to workers/economic reasons) and people just flooding the borders. The previous "Americans" failed to protect their borders since back in 1492 and look what happened to them.
I think most people would like controlled immigration.
Cat and dog control 😆 🤣 🐈 🐕
@bignicktx True, though if it was my Fluffy that got eaten I wouldn't be too happy.
Obama is a POS! Biden is a waste of oxygen; his name has officially been changed to "ByeDONE"! 🤨
I'm not sure how your rant relates to my blog post. This post was largely about Britain!
What an outstanding contribution to the debate, you must be real proud. Somehow I suspect this matches your contribution to society.
I think you need to check history! Most here are from settlers , they came here with nothing and built America into what it is today.Today the people come are here for a better life and not build it, they take more then they give. Just look at the flags they wave!!!
I'm quite familiar with history. I think you may need to check your facts. Where is your evidence that migrants take more than they give? In terms of the economy, they give more than they take.
Most migrants move to improve their lives and build/contribute to their environment. This is narrow-minded drivel from a cultist.
Deport them all including daca
Another carefully crafted comment from the cult.
Wow, political stuff on a SEX site? That sure dried up my juices.
Politics is allowed on this site.
@Trapper69 I've read many conservative posts and comments here.
@Trapper69 Politics, for one reason or another, has become very polarised but that's not a sufficient reason for people not to be polite.
@Trapper69 The world needs far less hate.
I enjoyed the read. Well structured, some compelling arguments, and informational as well. Well done!
I'm glad you enjoyed the read. A few people didn't seem to enjoy the post!
@spunkycumfun I don't have to fully embrace the argument to enjoy the time taken and the salient points made.
@sexy2stepper62 It's always good to have a civilised debate about issues.
There is a liberal arts college in the county seat that draws students from around the globe. A couple of my kids attended there and had the best fun making friends with people from far away lands. I have had many of them join us for holiday celebrations.
In some places, migrants might be scrutinized or picked on. Here in America's heartland, we enjoy the diversity and sharing of cultures.
I love meeting people from different countries with different cultures.
The reasons being used today are quite similar to those used in the early 1900s, but against the Irish, Polish, Italians and others. No one questions immigrants from those countries any more. I think the last 100 years has proved those arguments wrong.
The case for migration, or at least controlled migration, is a very strong one. Politicians need to take the lead and stop following the opinion polls.
An excellent post, well researched and articulated. It must have taken some work to compose, so thank you!
For me the important issues are:
If we must control migration then let's manage in comprehensively so that migrants and asylum seekers become integral to our communities and contribute fully. There's absolutely no reason not to.
Alternatively, do away with borders, centralise the world economy around one currency, have the 1% contribute their fair share instead of stealing more, then the issue of migration will disappear. Sadly, pie in the sky, the greed and narcissism of the human ego will not permit that.
Fundamentally, let's get back to treating people with respect. Do we really need to go to war, a war in which this time billions will die, before we get back to the realisation that everyone is a human being, entitled to food and water and a reasonable life with a reasonable share of the world's resources. If we don't, mother earth will bite back, she's only nibbling at present.
And on the micro scale, just be kind to the next person, don't be afraid or suspicious, just be kind. It's easy, and uplifting.
Kindness goes a long way.
What I worry about this 'migration' issue is that those who are liberal towards migrants become intolerant of migrants just to counter the right.. I'm thinking of Keir Starmer here in his battle with Reform UK, while recognising it's an electoral battle.
For too long, politicians here haven't spelt out the benefits of migration. Tony Blair half-heartedly tried to, David Cameron and the rest dismally failed.
I've long given up hope on Donald Trump being a kind human being like I've given up hope on MAGA supporters being kind.
Sorry to come back at you again. But I actually think that part of the problem here is that asylum seekers aren't allowed to work until they become refugees. They can enrol on English language courses but they can't work legally. They're just a target for the right. But I realise they'd still be a target for the right if they were allowed to work here - the right would just say 'they're taking our jobs'. The right needs to have a good look at itself, which of course it won't because it just wants to spew its so-called instinctual nonsense.
@spunkycumfun
Starmer's and Labour's efforts to counter farage are laughable. They need to get more active on social media and show the benefits of migration and how the UK will fall without it. farage just wants to continue the creation of the underclass, the poor, to serve the rich.
Sickening.
I often ponder these days what ever happened to compassion. Was it really thatcherite greed in the UK? I'm not sure it was ever really that widespread in the USA.
@spunkycumfun
Your second reply showed up after I responded.
No worries at all. I've got some direct experience of the asylum system (in scotland at least) though primarily with people who have been granted asylum. I know a Syrian gent who went to the job centre the day after he'd been housed to ask for work. I know another gent, Somali, who used to sit outside the local coffee shop in all weathers to sit in on his english lessons which were delivered on zoom during covid, because he had no wifi and no data. He watched and listened to his lessons on his phone using the shop's wifi, his phone screen was broken.
Asylum seekers are desperate people who just want to live their lives safely and work to put bread on their plate.
I've often asked myself why the far right do what they do. They are a conglomeration of disaffected poor working class bigoted people happily being led by a small number of very rich very entitled white people whose cynicism allows them to peddle their hatred in the interests of satisfying their disproportionate greed.
It won't end well.
@lindoboy100 It's got to the point here that every crime committed by an asylum seeker is reported on the news. The reportage ignores the evidence that asylum seekers commit less crime than British citizens pro rata.
@spunkycumfun
I think we need to explore the reasons behind the anti-migrant narrative promoted by the right wing media (which is the largest proportion of popular media sources) to really understand what's going on. And the starting point is the ownership of those platforms, whether paper or digital.
Bottom line is that except for the 1% we're all fucked, especially the people who buy into those narratives.
I find it quite alarming that I begin to sound like a weird conspiracist, but I'm not, and this is happening in plain sight. It is completely Orwellian.
@lindoboy100 The right-wing press, especially the Daily Mail and The Sun, have a lot to answer for. And, as you say, the answers lie in the minds of those people who own the newspapers.
I think migration has been a problem for decades, and they truly need to fix the Immigration system to make it fair for all immigrants, excluding the felons. You know my people ( Cheyenne Indians and all other
Indians Tribes ) that were here first have always been treated unfairly.
This was a great read this morning, as I think you were spot on today. I hope you enjoy a terrific Tuesday my friend..
A fair immigration system is the best way forward.
Excellent article in the Guardian this afternoon about our soon to be PM:
(https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2025/nov/18/deeply-shocking-nigel-farage-faces-fresh-claims-of-racism-and-antisemitism-at-school)
Thanks for the link. Farage is a nasty piece of work.
Wow you drink the kool aid ! Look at the money spent on the immigration today. When my family arrived in 1847 no one was giving them health care EBT they moved to a plot of land and built a farm which turned in to a town
Most migrants nowadays work hard to make a better life for themselves and their families. Research consistently finds that migrants bring a lot to the economy. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
@spunkycumfun
And of course because this is this one's experience then it must hold true for everyone. What a load of utter pish!
Between you and @OddsAgainst you've certainly brought a few out of their cultist lair over the last couple of weeks! I feel as if I'm missing out!! 🤣🤣🤣
@lindoboy100 Because of his experience, I've now turned MAGA! It's like we've gone back to the Dark Ages, and those times were probably more enlightened to the nonsense spouted in the name of MAGA.
Cheeses, ye've not half rattled the cage and brought out the trolls. Some of these people just take the cake with some hateful sentiment right off the bat. They obviously struggled to read your post beyond the title, then chose to misread it!
Please do feel free to delete any of my comments if you think they're too incendiary.
I won't delete your comments.
It's good to rattle the cage. There's quite some bigoted, ignorant nonsense posted below!
You are dead wrong about the economic value of illegal immigrants.
No. I'm not wrong. I was making an economic case for migration. The economic case for migrants is overwhelming - below are five research reports backing up my argument:
I'd be interested to hear of and read evidence for your counter-argument. Have you got any?
Your opinion might carry more weight if you supported it with facts.
I bet you knew I was gonna write a book in a response lol
I was hoping you would!
for all your rambling....you obmitted one basic fact
And please tell me what that basic fact is.
I'm still waiting for your fact that I've omitted.
@spunkycumfun
Maybe they'll answer if you ask them to clarify the fact that you obmitted . . . ?
@lindoboy100 You're probably right. The fact that I obmitted is that mbany mbigrants arbe tbhe dbevil inbcarnate!
I'm still waiting or are you chicken?
The real problem we have now is that many migrants are being continuously labeled as terrorists and drug dealers by the unhinged orange faced guy and his hardcore delusional conservative followers without proof that they actually are those things.
The right with their unsubstantiated words of hate are doing a lot of damage to the cohesion of societies.
Not just the migrants are being labeled as terrorists. Now anyone who voices disagreement with the Trump Administration's policies about immigration is labeled a terrorist. Trump and several of his high ranking staff, including the vice president and Speaker of the House, have either posted information to this effect on official government websites and/or in press conferences and interviews. Judges, attorney generals, journalists...anyone is now labeled a terrorist if they disagree with the immigration policies. Someone told me they consider these statements to just be 'political theatre' and that it's just being said to scare people. I disagree with that.